1997 K1500 Injection problem.

gearhead351

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Hello all, Im new to the forum and I have a question for you veteran GM mechanics. I am a Ford Guy and I love my GM for a daily driver but I have no real knowledge in the MPFI injection system, So I hope I can get an answer to my wonders.

I have a 1997 GMC K1500 4x4, vortec 350, 4l60e. Very well maintainted, 127,000 miles. Has a K&N drop in Filter, dual'd off magniflows, TB spacer and a velocity stack insert. Basically all stock.

When the truck is fully hot, You can full throttle it, and it feels like it has no power at all at a dead stop. Then it hits 3500 rpm or so, and it feels like the power just is their like a light switch. It kind if baffles me, It sometimes is completely normal with the power, then mostly its just a total dog till the high revs, and even then somtimes it doesnt pull like it should.

I've been doing some reading into the stock injection "spyder" assembly and I think this is all a fuel issue. I have gotten two missfire codes a couple months ago.

What do you guys think? thank you, Matt.
 
Hello all, Im new to the forum and I have a question for you veteran GM mechanics. I am a Ford Guy and I love my GM for a daily driver but I have no real knowledge in the MPFI injection system, So I hope I can get an answer to my wonders.

I have a 1997 GMC K1500 4x4, vortec 350, 4l60e. Very well maintainted, 127,000 miles. Has a K&N drop in Filter, dual'd off magniflows, TB spacer and a velocity stack insert. Basically all stock.

When the truck is fully hot, You can full throttle it, and it feels like it has no power at all at a dead stop. Then it hits 3500 rpm or so, and it feels like the power just is their like a light switch. It kind if baffles me, It sometimes is completely normal with the power, then mostly its just a total dog till the high revs, and even then somtimes it doesnt pull like it should.

I've been doing some reading into the stock injection "spyder" assembly and I think this is all a fuel issue. I have gotten two missfire codes a couple months ago.

What do you guys think? thank you, Matt.

Nothing to do with your SCFI system, your set up is way off for your PCM program. Your going to have to Dyno tune your PCM for the mods your engine has. You intake and exhaust has less restriction now which is a good thing, and in long story short. Anything past 80% of your throttle blade, the readings form your MAF sensor is no longer used.

The readings from your MAP sensor is used to control your Air fuel ratio which is much richer. It turns out that in order to have a reaction that uses up all of the gas and all of the air available, you need to have about 14.7 times the mass of air, as you have the mass of gas. For example, if you have 14.7 pounds of air, you need 1 pound of gasoline to burn both of them completely.

The ECU needs to calculate the amount of fuel to shoot into the motor. In order to know how much gasoline it needs to inject, it needs to know how much air is coming in, and what the target air to fuel ratio (A/F ratio) is at that point in time. This is the job of the air metering devices, and some of the code in the ECU, which interprets the information from these devices.

The air metering system consists of four parts: the MAF, and intake air temperature sensor, the intake air pressure sensor (MAP), O2 sensor and the ECU. Now, if the ECU knows the velocity of the airflow, and if it is programmed to know the cross-sectional area of the MAF, then it can calculate the volumetic flow of air through the MAF. Think about it, if you have air moving at 1 foot per minute, through a tube that has a cross-section of one square foot, you will have a flow of one cubic foot per minute.

Then, the ECU looks at a air/fuel ratio table (if in open-loop) or shoots for 14.7:1 (if in closed loop), and decides how much fuel it needs. Since the ECU knows how much the injectors flow, it can figure out how long it needs to open them up. For example, if it wants half the fuel that the injectors can deliver, then it will just open them up half the time.

When at WOT your MAF readings are no longer used and the reading from your MAP sensor is used, (manifold absolute pressure sensor) a variable resistor used to monitor the difference in pressure between the intake manifold at outside atmosphere. This information is used by the engine ECM to monitor engine load (vacuum drops when the engine is under load or at wide open throttle). When the engine is under load, the computer may alter spark timing and the fuel mixture to improve performance and emissions.

With the less restrictive intake and exhaust system you have now, the program perimeters burn in your ECM can not compensate for it until your RPM is where you have indicated. Your upper RPM, until you get your ECM tuned for your modification. Your going to have to lean how to only use up to 80% of your throttle till you get up in your RPM to get your Sierra to wake up. :eek:

Here is a link that will fix your low RPM HP issues and should save you some money at the gas pumps. http://www.pcmforless.com/
 
I think you have my issue solved. That would make sense with my modifcations to alter the fuel, and ignition curves. Now that I think about it, it performs best at half to 3/4 throttle. Full throttle it dogs.

What would be my best programming options for full power restored, and not run premium pump gas? Or if I did run premium, are the power gains for this truck worth it?

also, I can imagine if the computer could not compensate for the added air, it would cause pinging because it was lean. Would that trip a missfire code? or a knock sensor code? Both would back off the timing Im sure. But Im still wondering why I got those. I am changing the plugs and fuel filter today, so maybe Ill find something.

Thank you very much. You are very knowledgeable on your sierra's.
 
I think you have my issue solved. That would make sense with my modifcations to alter the fuel, and ignition curves. Now that I think about it, it performs best at half to 3/4 throttle. Full throttle it dogs.

What would be my best programming options for full power restored, and not run premium pump gas? Or if I did run premium, are the power gains for this truck worth it?

also, I can imagine if the computer could not compensate for the added air, it would cause pinging because it was lean. Would that trip a missfire code? or a knock sensor code? Both would back off the timing Im sure. But Im still wondering why I got those. I am changing the plugs and fuel filter today, so maybe Ill find something.

Thank you very much. You are very knowledgeable on your sierra's.

You only get a code if the ECM can not compensate for the detonation, but yes you are correct that the engine timing will be set back if there is any issues. Your timing is controlled by the ECM in your Vortec engine, to keep is simple the knock sensor sends a signal to to the ECM if a Knock occurs which in turn will set the timing back to safe operation condition for the engine. The Cam and crank sensor sends information to the ECM to try to keep the timing as far in advance as possible for the most efficient and HP the engine can run without compromising the emission standards.

This is why in the Vortec family engines, you can not time the engine like in the old days of turning the distributor and a timing light. You also need a tech2 scanner to program your ECM to recognize the crank and cam shaft sensor. The advantage you have with the V8 over the V6 Vortec is that the distributor on the V8 can still be moved and the ones on the V6 are fixed to a specified spot on the block. One if the untamed secrets to old school is to advance the timing on your Vortec by 2 degrees and run a higher octane gas (91) and that would wake up your engine but it's not worth doing it until you have disabled the Torque management system to your Sierra which is programed in to your ECM.

Best thing is to give the guy a call at PCMforless to answer any other questions you may have about the power gain and fuel economy in question. I have a 1996 Jimmy and dyno tuned with a HP tuner which is giving me just over 23 mpg on the high way as long as i'm not on the skinny peddle to much and that's an average running around 72 MPH. Take note that the HP tuner does not support the 1996 to 1998 vortec ECM's, i had to get creative and use the ECM from the 1998 with the bindery codes from a 2002 to operate the engine :mad: So the best bet is to find a shop around your area that can Dyno tune your Sierra or as mentioned http://www.pcmforless.com/ since there one of beat guys out here that know what there are doing. Oh and you don't have to run premium gas all the time, the program can compensate for which octane your using. But i have found that the extra cents for the higher octane is giving me more MPG and better performance. :D

Oh and being a 1997, you may want to try to give it a Seafoam treatment.

http://www.seafoamsales.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef3HNvxblxQ
 
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I am going to use PCM for less. Seems like a very reputible service and I've only heard good things about them.

one last question, could you explain the torque managment that is in the programming?
 
I am going to use PCM for less. Seems like a very reputible service and I've only heard good things about them.

one last question, could you explain the torque managment that is in the programming?

All 1996 and up Vortec has (TM) Torque Management Programed in them, i believe PCM removes that program, but it does not hurt to make sure they do.

It is basiclly a way to make the GM more driver friendly to the soccer moms with a lead foot on slippery conditions. When too much power is applied the computer retards the timing and I believe it cuts it back at the torque converter too. In the newer trucks like in 2003 the TM is more notice then the older ones like in yours and if anyone tells you other wise that your truck does not have one, you'll find a difference once it's been disabled.

Anybody that makes custom tunes such as PCMfor less, Nelsons, Westers, and blackbear. They claim to get around 40-50 horse with a tune depending on what octane you choose. They also can take out the torque management, they say 80% is a safe amount to take out. So take that into consideration on how much hp GM is taking from you, i have no Torque Management on my jimmy at all and can brake all 4 wheel (AWD transfer case) on wet pavement, but is did replace the boost valve 0.490" and the servo with corvette servo. (Hooked on stupidness still) :eek:

My dad's Yukon is tuned right to the tits, 90% TM removed at WOT. It takes off like factory settings when you drive like a normal human being. I advance the timing and can run on 93 Octane, hang 1st gear till 5500 RPM and 2nd till 5200. Stiffen up the shift points too, the stock kickdown points are brutal too. It will still hit 1st at 75km/h. A few other tables you can mess with and Can beat any 5.3, I raced a vortec max he got me off the line but I cought him at about 80 KM an hour but he had stock tuning with a lift and 35's lol. Won't try race a 6.2 tho with my dad in his Yukon, he has no clue i got a hold of his toy with MY HP tuner. :D
 
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I really wonder'd why you'd stab it and nothing would happen lol. My F350 with 44" boggers will roast'em on the pavenment but not my little GMC with a 350.

I think ill have it just all turned off. I got the valve body pulled, rebuilt, and reamed out with new solenoids, .510 boost valve, B&M shift kit, with corvette servo's. I think that would really help with the red light take off's :D.

Do you really think a PCM program will make that much of a difference with mid grade gas?
 
I really wonder'd why you'd stab it and nothing would happen lol. My F350 with 44" boggers will roast'em on the pavenment but not my little GMC with a 350.

I think ill have it just all turned off. I got the valve body pulled, rebuilt, and reamed out with new solenoids, .510 boost valve, B&M shift kit, with corvette servo's. I think that would really help with the red light take off's :D.

Do you really think a PCM program will make that much of a difference with mid grade gas?

0.510 Boost valve may be to hard and you may end up cracking the sunshell :eek:.

Below is a list of the weak points in a 4L60E transmission. These need an upgrade when putting more than ~300 horsepower through a 4L60E:

- Input drum
- Overrun clutch hub
- Output shaft
- Input sprag (for extended high speed/load use in 4th)
- Sun gear shell

By the way, when General Motors upgraded the 4L60E from a torque rating of 360 ft·lb to 380+ ft·lb to make it the 4L65E, they made the following changes:
5 pinion input and reverse gear sets (4L60E have 4 pinion gear sets), heat treated stator shaft splines, induction hardened turbine shaft splines,
heavy duty low/reverse roller clutch, seven 3-4 clutch plates (six plates in a 4L60E), shot-peened output shaft, revised valve body calibration.

Pumps for the 4L60E can be found in 10 vane and 13 vane versions. Use the 13 vane pump. The 13 vane pump does not have a higher pump volume than the 10 vane pump. Instead, the number of vanes was changed to alter harmonics that caused the rotors to break up. You may also want to get the heavier duty 'unbreakable' pump rings from TransGo. If you use a teflon pump bushing, always apply Locktite® to it so that it cannot move forward. This is a common leakage problem with the 4L60E. Always replace the rear stator bushing since it is the sealing point for lubrication. On a performance build, you should replace all the bushings. It is inexpensive to do (if you have the tools). You also want to make sure that the splines on the stator are in good shape. Replace the boost valve with a Sonnax valve or TransGo, as these are frequently worn out.

The boost valve and sleeve in the pump should be replaced every 40,000 miles (65,000km) to avoid damage to the transmission. Damage can occur when wear in the boost sleeve causes insufficient line pressure in reverse. Many major repairs of the 4L60E at around 50,000 plus miles are because of the boost valve and sleeve. The valve and sleeve can be replaced easily during a routine service of the transmission for around $50. This should be considered a necessary procedure if you are transplanting one into your car. Oversized (0.490" versus the stock 0.470" or 0.420") reverse boost valves are available that provide a moderate increase in pressure, and are a good addition to any 4L60E. As well, the pressure regulator valve (located under the reverse boost valve) should have two small 'flats' (~3/16" wide) ground on the second land - counting the lands from the end opposite that spring seat (or alternatively it should be replaced with an updated valve that has these flats).

Put a straight edge across the band surface and make sure it is absolutely straight. The drum tends to become dished over time, which doesn't allow the band to make full contact over the full width. The center will be really low and the two outside edges high. A quick glance at the band will show you where it burned on the edges and the middle is still new. If your reverse drum is not perfectly straight, replace it.

Do not use Kevlar bands. Kevlar, the material bullet proof vest are made from, is very hard material which does not have the holding capacity of other, more conventional materials. If you are making a lot of horsepower, you will have excessive slippage on the 1-2 shift with a Kevlar band. Instead of Kevlar, use a performance band made by ALTO. The band is a wider and provides much better holding capacity than the Kevlar band. Shifts are crisper and the durability is very good with the ALTO band.

Input drum: This is the weakest component of the 4L60E transmission. The 3-4 clutches tend to burn up. Buy a 3-4 clutch set called the Raybestos Max Pac. Don't use Kevlar (see above) and don't use the Raybestos blue plate clutch set. The Max Pac is an 8 clutch set (instead of 6 in the stock clutch).

Some companies sell a 9 clutch set. You will get more clutch area, but with reduced the thickness of the steel plates. The thin steel plates will distort and burn in high power situations, so stay away from them. Also, the Max Pac instruction require you to drill a 0.035" (0.9mm) hole at the back of the drum. This hole prevents any possibility of a centrifugal apply of the clutches. On the 3-4 clutches, clutch clearance should be kept to a minimum, aim for 0.010" (0.25mm). This allows for faster 2-3 shifts and no burnt clutches.

The forward clutches apply ONLY when you shift from neutral to drive. Then they remain on throughout the entire time you are driving forward. These clutches do NOT come on and off while you are driving, and as a result they experience minimal wear. You should focus on the clutches that come on while at high torque is delivered from the engine, as those are the clutches that get burned up. So use stock clutches (such as the Borg Warner brand) for the forward and over run sections. Keep the original front planet and ring gear, they have proven to be reliable in high power applications. :D

The sun shell is a very weak point in the 4L60E transmission. This weakness must be addressed in high power applications. Always replace the sun shell. The best shell is the "BEAST" from SPX, they are nearly unbreakable. The Beast or the GM #24221190 revised sun shell kit has worked in most cases, however the sun shell is always going to be a concern. The revised GM sun shell rarely fails and if it does, it's most likely to strip the teeth off the sun shell.:mad:
 
That a very good write up on the 4L60E. I've been researching the heck out of that tranny and compiled everything to build a bult trans. Including all the weak points . .

I felt safe with the .510 because this is a single cab, short box truck, no towing or hauling of any kind. Just my cruiser.
 
That a very good write up on the 4L60E. I've been researching the heck out of that tranny and compiled everything to build a bult trans. Including all the weak points . .

I felt safe with the .510 because this is a single cab, short box truck, no towing or hauling of any kind. Just my cruiser.

NO worries, the boost valve is a simple replacement if you find it to harsh, I had the 0.500" in my Jimmy and is running the 0.490" boost valve now and you can always program your PCM to compensate for the harsh shift through the EPC valve. I mean harsh by every time you put the transmission in the forward or reverse gear, the transmission bucks Extremely harsh shifts from P or N, normal shifts at WOT so I found the 0.490" more friendly.

Oh and don't forget the transmission mount, i did and I had issues :mad:
 


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